Dea Kulumbegashvili & Arseni Khachaturan on framing the unseen in 'April'
This week, we welcome the visionary duo behind the hauntingly beautiful film 'April' – Georgian writer-director Dea Kulumbegashvili and her longtime collaborator, cinematographer Arseni Khachaturan, known for his mesmerizing visual poetry. Together, they've crafted a cinematic experience that defies conventional storytelling while captivating audiences with its deliberate pacing and breathtaking imagery.
Our conversation ranges from the magic of what's captured in the frame to the enchanting mysteries of what lies just beyond it. It's a playful yet profound exploration of perspective, where we question not just what we see, but how we perceive our very existence through the lens of film.
As we banter about titles and the creative process, you'll find out how the two dance between intense collaboration and friendly debates—because let's be real, who doesn't love a good argument over artistic vision, especially when it's all moving toward a similar goal?
Transcript
You are listening to the we need to Talk About Oscar podcast, and this is our conversation with Deacul M.
Speaker A:Bagashvili and Arsenic, writer, director and the cinematographer of April.
Speaker B:There's always a conversation about what is in the frame, but an even bigger conversation.
Speaker B:What's not in the frame, what's outside of the frame.
Speaker B:I think they are trying to avoid being too literal, maybe, because that's one of the curses in modern cinema.
Speaker C:Does the actor look into the camera?
Speaker C:Does the actor look a tiny bit off the camera?
Speaker C:Because, like, I do believe that looking into the camera is specifically very important way of grasping something.
Speaker C:Because who's looking?
Speaker C:Like, are we looking?
Speaker C:Are they looking at us?
Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker A:Let's start at the top with the title change, because as far as I know, the film was originally titled those who Find Me and ended up being April.
Speaker A:So if I may ask, what led you to this decision?
Speaker C:Well, I think that those who Find Me is something which was like, for me, an anchor for the film that led me through.
Speaker C:Through somehow the through line of the film or what it was about for me.
Speaker C:But then, like, I prefer to have at the end the titles which are more modest somehow, and which are more open also maybe for interpretation.
Speaker C:And we changed it when the film was finished.
Speaker C:Also, like, until I finished the film, it's very difficult for me to know for sure what's the title.
Speaker C:And I know that for many directors, it's not.
Speaker C:By the way, they're doing the great job, like, knowing the title from the start.
Speaker C:But I really need time.
Speaker A:So this is pretty much what you would call a working title.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Now I'm writing something which is called Working Title, actually.
Speaker A:Maybe that's the one you should keep.
Speaker A:But still with that in mind, despite the title primarily needing to say something about the film to audiences, maybe.
Speaker A:What do film titles mean to you, both as filmmakers and film lovers?
Speaker C:To me, it's something which makes me dream about a film somehow, or it's very elusive and which, like, gives me some sort of, like, a way into the film without even watching it.
Speaker C:Or the way also to think more or to go into the world of the film after watching it.
Speaker C:So title for me is something which is beyond the film.
Speaker B:Yeah, I like personally when titles are slightly misleading or maybe irrational.
Speaker B:I love that.
Speaker B:Carlos, regardless of the film called Hapon, which has nothing to do with anything whatsoever happened.
Speaker C:Yeah, we used.
Speaker C:I mean, he actually was telling us what it was about.
Speaker C:But I also, like, that's actually from myself.
Speaker C:And Arseni is one of the most loved titles for us, right?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's just.
Speaker B:It's just iconic somehow, and it sticks, you remember?
Speaker B:I like the title a lot, to be honest.
Speaker A:It has always only made sense to me to have the two of you on the show together because there is a symbiosis where you don't have to BV the characters and yet you feel their presence, even in a steal when it comes to the two of you works.
Speaker A:For example, how a stable shot looking at the sky for, say, five minutes, which is, to me, just simply at the same time as human as it gets.
Speaker A:And these shots, these aren't like time lapses or anything like that.
Speaker A:You record hours and hours of footage.
Speaker A:The two of you's collaboration's been ongoing for about a decade now, if I'm correct.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker C:Yeah, almost.
Speaker C:Right, that's true.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker A:But hopefully even a couple more decades.
Speaker A:But I'm sure that along with this aforementioned synergy, there is some room for constructive conversations, maybe even debate.
Speaker A:So how much push and pull do you two have between each other in terms of determining these shots when it comes to setup, length, et cetera?
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker C:You know, sometimes, also, like, we started to discover this new thing that sometimes I want to shoot things and I want to, I mean, operate the camera.
Speaker C:And then, like, I do a horrible mistake sometimes of, like, something is just like, technically not being as good.
Speaker C:And it's so funny how if it was Arseny, who would do that?
Speaker C:I would be so upset.
Speaker C:But then, like, Arseni is more forgiving in that way.
Speaker C:He's almost like, you see what happened?
Speaker C:Like, you see, it's not that I'm forgiven.
Speaker B:It's more like, I like those imperfections.
Speaker B:Like, we have this thing that when we shoot with Day, when we work on films together, I never get on a crane.
Speaker B:All the crane shots.
Speaker B:She's operating, it's her privilege and her domain.
Speaker B:So whenever she wants a crane, know, I say go on a crane, and I just stay, you know, on the ground.
Speaker B:I like those imperfections, though.
Speaker B:I like to let it lose and let some life in, see what happens.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And for me, it's also important sometimes to operate because that also, like, helps me to somehow connect and understand, like, Arcane's process, like, to really look at things, because when we set up the shot, we look through the camera, obviously, but then it's important also to be connected with it sometimes while we're shooting, because I hate to have a monitor on set.
Speaker C:It's really distracting for me, and I just really get used to It.
Speaker C:And actually we always had like, so many arguments about.
Speaker C:Because some people on set demand to have a monitor.
Speaker C:And for me, like, it needs to be really far away so I don't see it.
Speaker C:Like, it irritates me so much, like, to see it and then, like.
Speaker C:But then I need to be close to the camera.
Speaker C:And I always talk to Arseni when we're filming.
Speaker C:Like, while we're filming, I want him to do something and I'm like, do this, do this.
Speaker C:It could be very annoying.
Speaker C:I know.
Speaker B:No, but I like it though.
Speaker B:I like it though.
Speaker B:I think it kind of goes hand in hand with the esque process.
Speaker B:Also.
Speaker B:We made multiple films together and it's a process of, you know, in pre production and development, there are all these things on the table and then as we proceed, they distill and boils it down.
Speaker B:Distills, distills everything to the essence.
Speaker B:And I'm talking about the script, I'm talking about scenes.
Speaker B:I'm also talking about workflow.
Speaker B:The way we work is beginning.
Speaker B:Her first feature film was shot with one lens.
Speaker B:April shot.
Speaker B:99% of the film is shot with one lens as well, except for two shots.
Speaker B:And it's kind of like no motors, no distractions.
Speaker B:One camera, one lens.
Speaker B:She's always next to it.
Speaker B:We like to see performances not on the screen, but, you know, be there with people, with actors performing.
Speaker B:So it's like, it's a very close, intimate work environment for us.
Speaker B:And it's intentional.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Even like on set, while we're rolling, we do talk to each other and people know it, like, because I might just say something to Rosteni and he'll be responding and I don't know.
Speaker C:With all honesty, I don't really know how to work with another cinematographer.
Speaker C:And I never.
Speaker C:No, this is true.
Speaker C:Because I would be fired probably.
Speaker A:Like, when somebody like the cinematographer would fire you.
Speaker C:Because of annoying them so much.
Speaker C:Because, like, honestly, like, for me, it's like I become so obsessed and I like, want Arseni to look at everything.
Speaker C:And like, when we were like, usually, like, this is one like, kind of like a joke between us that, like, when we do location scouting, for me, it's important that we do it.
Speaker C:Arseni and I, just two of us together.
Speaker C:We need to go everywhere together, look at everything and look for things.
Speaker C:And then I'm always like, arsene is driving because I don't drive.
Speaker C:And I'll be like, always pointing fingers, being like, arseni, look at this.
Speaker C:Look.
Speaker C:And Arseni is like, like, it's not like I can't look at that because I need to look at the road.
Speaker C:And it becomes so, like, I don't know, sad that he doesn't want to see what I'm showing him.
Speaker C:Because really, that particular light and he doesn't want to look at it.
Speaker B:No, but it's not annoying.
Speaker B:I think we have a lot of fun.
Speaker B:We have a lot of fun.
Speaker B:And I think in 10 years that we've known each other, we're very close friends and we work very closely and we also just talk every day.
Speaker B:Our work process is kind of merged with our lives and we're just always in touch.
Speaker B:We talk every day about anything.
Speaker B:Whatever you read, whatever you saw, whatever you consider films.
Speaker B:Yeah, and it's sort of like.
Speaker B:It's a very.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:How do I call it?
Speaker B:It's a very sort of intimate, close, very involved process.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Like, for my family, for example, like, Arseni is like, are the good member of the family.
Speaker C:And it's like.
Speaker C:It's very important for me to have this kind of like a very safe space also for collaboration, to be able to say totally stupid things, things that do not make any sense, or to aspire for things that are impossible.
Speaker C:And it's like, often that I want to film something which is totally impossible to do.
Speaker C:It's technically impossible, but then I still need to be insisting that we need to think about it.
Speaker C:And then sometimes we find a way at the end to film something which is not exactly what I wanted, but at least it initiates the thinking process.
Speaker C:But then, of course, we do have constructive and sometimes destructive arguments as well, because we're humans.
Speaker C:And it's okay because we're first of all, very close friends.
Speaker C:And it's fine with me that sometimes we just have misunderstanding because we're humans.
Speaker C:But the main thing is to have a utmost respect towards each other.
Speaker C:And that's like, always there for both of us.
Speaker B:Yeah, I love to argue.
Speaker B:We have great arguments, I think, with a lot of respect.
Speaker B:Always.
Speaker B:Yeah, but it's like productive arguments, you know, it's creative arguments.
Speaker B:We're not arguing against each other.
Speaker B:We kind of.
Speaker B:We're arguing about the topic or about a subject.
Speaker C:Always.
Speaker C:Yeah, I want to film with one lens.
Speaker B:Actually, that's not even true.
Speaker C:You never want it.
Speaker C:It kind of like comes inevitably at the end.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:There is one incredible detail I'd absolutely love to talk to you guys about, which is whether we are seeing Nina as the characters actual pov, which is something you've also done in your first feature.
Speaker A:Beginning.
Speaker A:I even saw this awesome behind the scenes shot that captures the moment.
Speaker A:Some of the crew are placing EA's headshots right above the lens.
Speaker A:Or on the other hand, when you are.
Speaker A:And we are observing from the outside.
Speaker A:And this is something that is clearly also connected to the script.
Speaker A:And it's a case of cause and effect, of course.
Speaker A:But how do you make sense of it visually?
Speaker C:Sometimes we don't, honestly.
Speaker C:Because I think that sometimes what's most important for me is to really go with the feeling and to understand, like, what do I feel in this case?
Speaker C:Because, for example, in April there is one shot which literally is not Nina's pov.
Speaker C:It cannot be.
Speaker C:And this is actually the moment which shifts somehow the perspective in the film and brings in another perspective of some otherness.
Speaker C:And maybe we don't think about it and we don't rationalize it, but it starts to become very much like, present.
Speaker C:And to me it's also like, very important to think about.
Speaker C:Like, does the actor look into the camera?
Speaker C:Does it actually look a tiny bit off the camera?
Speaker C:Because, like, I do believe that looking into the camera is specifically very important way of grasping something.
Speaker C:Because who's looking?
Speaker C:Like, are we looking?
Speaker C:Are they looking at us?
Speaker C:For me, cinema is this, like, a possibility to really question the perspective, not only in the visual sense, but also like, in terms of, like, how do we perceive ourselves in our own lives?
Speaker C:And it's not always like, directly narrative driven in a way, but it's like something which starts to happen or accumulate beyond the narrative or beyond what we have written or created.
Speaker C:And those, like, irrational moments are for me, the most important parts of making a film.
Speaker B:Yeah, and it's always very interesting working with that.
Speaker B:There's always the conversation about perspective, there's always the conversation about perception.
Speaker B:And it doesn't always have to be irrational or explained.
Speaker B:I think it's kind of fascinating shifting the stings and being playful in this process.
Speaker B:And I think when we were developed in April, we talked about it quite a lot, actually.
Speaker B:In this film we researched computer games.
Speaker B:We talked a lot about computer games.
Speaker B:Neither the two of us actually play computer games that much.
Speaker B:I used to play when I was a teenager, but I don't have time anymore and.
Speaker B:And we talked about it a lot.
Speaker B:We played Death Stranding by Kojima and we talked about different perspective on how we can be free in this sort of environment and how it could be applied to filmmaking, to cinema, you know.
Speaker C:Also, like, contemporary media in general, like, there are, like, images everywhere and it's some sort of like cinema somehow utilizes or like tells the stories in a way of a very conservative way.
Speaker C:But then there is also like other things.
Speaker C:And like I said this like also maybe a long time ago, like I used to have a Facebook account which I don't have anymore.
Speaker C:But like, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago this happened.
Speaker C:That like terrible act of violence happened in real time on camera, on Facebook live stream.
Speaker C:Like in Ankara there was like an ambassador who was.
Speaker B:Oh yeah.
Speaker C:And then like it was shot and it was a horrible thing.
Speaker C:And then when everybody started to run away, the cameras remained running and they just kept recording.
Speaker B:Yes, yeah.
Speaker C:And for me that was somehow like a shifting moment in terms of like what cinema is for me, because it was somehow like a shifting moment of a perspective.
Speaker C:And who creates this image for whom to watch.
Speaker C:Because like it was so interesting that like, because it was a live stream initially there were like very few people watching and then by the end the camera was turned off.
Speaker C:There were like hundreds of thousands who.
Speaker B:Like joined the live stream.
Speaker C:Yeah, yes.
Speaker C:But then like the cameras were like fell down.
Speaker C:So obviously like the shot was totally distorted and you could not really see anything.
Speaker C:But then people were still obsessively trying to see something.
Speaker C:So I mean, what does it do to the ways of we film things or like how things are experienced in the contemporary world?
Speaker C:Like how do we look at things?
Speaker C:So those are questions which for me is important to ask.
Speaker C:Well, I am engaging the process of making a film and in that regard it's very important for us to really talk and argue and not make much sense in the process as well.
Speaker B:Was it the Russian ambassador or who was shot in Turkey?
Speaker B:Yeah, I remember that.
Speaker B:But it's interesting.
Speaker B:I agree, because I do 100% agree.
Speaker B:The CDM tends to be very sort of rigid and conservative in its form sometimes.
Speaker B:So those questions are very good questions to ask.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Also in that moment what was very interesting is that before like for me camera was always some sort of like a emotional observer of something because there was always like emotional presence of somebody who was observing.
Speaker C:And then in this moment it was like a totally detached moment of observation because I still can't make sense of it honestly.
Speaker C:And then, but in cinema we're still constructing constantly like a very heavily directed experience.
Speaker B:It tends to be very heavy handed in filmmaking.
Speaker B:I think while the camera is just there, it's emotionless.
Speaker B:It has no point of view, no filter, no opinion and it just, you know, records what it sees in front of it.
Speaker B:That's why the camera is interesting.
Speaker B:Camera always sees more than the eyes actually see.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, yeah, these are the conversations that we're having.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And on that note, what went into framing an abortion scene where we see the girl from the waist up, where the emotions are shown from the waist upwards, but physical horror of it all happens below the waist and with that out of the frame.
Speaker C:Well, for me, it was important to somehow focus on the physicality or some sort of, like, a creative possibility to connect with the bodily experience.
Speaker C:And not to emphasize emotion per se, maybe, but to leave the space for emotions to be created within a viewer or to arise within the viewer without directly pointing what that emotion needs to be.
Speaker C:And it was, like, difficult because when I was writing, I even at some point was thinking to just, like, feel nothing kind of in the process.
Speaker C:But I really needed the viewer to be somehow connected or at least looking at the body.
Speaker C:And it was difficult, by the way, because, like, even for Arseni, in a way, because it's kind of like a real time.
Speaker C:And we were, like, practicing how this would happen in the real time.
Speaker C:And, you know, to have something happening in real time and the camera to be always directed at one point, like, zero movement, not really see much.
Speaker C:This is like some sort of.
Speaker C:Like, we.
Speaker C:We always, like, discuss this, like, how much can you trust a viewer?
Speaker C:But they do, you know, maybe it's very romantic idea of, I don't know, humanity in a way, but, like, I really trust the viewer.
Speaker C:I do believe that we can emotionally connect without directly seeing.
Speaker C:Seeing something.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think there's always a conversation about what is in the frame, but an even bigger conversation.
Speaker B:What's not in the frame, what's outside of the frame.
Speaker B:I think they're trying to avoid being too literal, maybe, because that's one of the curses in modern cinema, in my opinion.
Speaker B:I'll speak for myself, maybe in our opinion, but I just.
Speaker C:It's just because we make this joke.
Speaker B:Now that we just can't.
Speaker B:I can't.
Speaker B:It's like we're doing an insert on a plant.
Speaker B:And then there's a voiceover saying, look, this is the plant.
Speaker B:And then mom is going to scream from the kitchen, did you water the plant?
Speaker B:And then you're like, okay, I got it.
Speaker B:Plant, right?
Speaker B:It's like everywhere.
Speaker B:It's like television, cinema, it's all one big salad now.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker C:It's just like they filled by loud Son of Saint, which we really love.
Speaker C:And I still really love this film, which kind of like, is really this Like a contemporary cinematic experience for me, which asks you that you know everything about concentration camps.
Speaker C:Do you really need to see more than this also?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It's kind of like asks you as a viewer to participate and to be an active viewer in the process.
Speaker C:Instead of, like, director constantly being like, this is a horrible thing happening on screen.
Speaker C:This is bad.
Speaker C:Like, yeah, I want to be, like, directed in that way somehow, because I actually trust the viewer or hope that I can trust.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think it's very, very important.
Speaker B:Or on the Second World War topic, the zone of interest.
Speaker B:We're across the fence from the concentration camp, yet we never see it in the film.
Speaker B:Not a single time, ever.
Speaker B:It's always about what you live out, and then that provokes conversations afterwards.
Speaker B:That's when people leave the cinema theater and they walk in the evening in the street and they start to wonder and they start to think and ask questions and they discuss.
Speaker B:And I think that's important because otherwise you just.
Speaker B:It's like.
Speaker B:I think there's some magic in living things out.
Speaker C:I remember that when I was a student in a film school, there was this incredible class and once there was some speaker who came in and who was telling.
Speaker C:Telling us how you need to work with the cinematographer.
Speaker C:And they told us that, like, cinematographers always care about their show reel.
Speaker C:So when you're making a film, tell them this is a shot which you can use for your reel.
Speaker C:Set it up the way you want, the rest in the film.
Speaker C:Be efficient, be fast.
Speaker C:This is incredible.
Speaker B:Amazing.
Speaker C:So you can also approach cinematography that way if you want.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Well, thank you so, so much for your time and, yeah, I really hope we'll get to talk again in the future, as soon as possible, because I love both your works, to be honest.
Speaker B:Thank you and appreciate it.
Speaker B:Thanks for having us.
Speaker C:Thank you very.
